Here is a text messaging dialogue that has been taking place in response to a recipient named John receiving the “Are You Ready?” Gospel Tract, presumably handed out in the Bellevue / Hayfields suburbs. The dialogue will show that not everyone that believes in our Lord Jesus Christ is actually believing in the same Jesus Christ of Holy Scripture, but another “jesus” whose Sovereign Deity is diminished. Here is the conversation:
?: 19/02/2013 @20:30 “Thanks for the “Are you ready” piece. Much of what you say is true. BUT, God did not take on human form in the Person of Jesus. The Lord Jesus is the SON of GOD – He is not God the Son. Jesus sits at God’s right hand! And in His good time He will send Jesus (not Him-self!) back to earth to establish His Kingdom.”
Gary: 20/02/2013 @06:24 Thank you for this note – however it appears that you have the JW understanding of things. Throughout the Holy Scriptures God Jehovah reveals Himself as a Triune God and it is in the NWT that the deity of Jesus Christ is diminished. Before the NWT was printed in the 1900’s what did JWs use? It would appear the KJV to some as I was informed recently through a discussion, but the Brooklyn Watchtower Society only came into operation in the 20th century. If you provide me with an email I will send you Scriptures that proves Jesus Christ as God manifest in flesh.
?: 20/02/2013 @ 08:04 “Hear O Israel the Lord our God is One (not 3)! You are wrong in thinking that I am a JW. Perish the thought! Nowhere in the Bible will you find any claim by Jesus that He is God. He prayed to His Father not to Himself. GOD said “You are my Son”. GOD cannot be tempted yet we know Jesus was. If Jesus sits at God’s right hand, how can He possibly be God? You mean well but beware the doctrines of man!”
?: 20/02/2013 @10:00 “I’m astonished that you say God revealed Himself as a tri-une God. Certainly NOT in the KJV or NIV. And you will not find the word “trinity” in the pages of Scripture! God says of Jesus, “YOU ARE MY SON in whom I am well pleased”. Why do you not believe this?? Jesus died on the cross – God cannot die. God raised His Son from the grave. “My God, why have you forsaken me?” Also, “I ascend to my Father”. read the whole Bible! Go well.”
Gary: 20/02/2013 @14:21 The initial sms had the trappings of what the JWs believe. Apologies. Now for the evidence. It would be easier if you provided me with an email so you can see when I am quoting Scripture and linking Scripture with commentary. There is so much text to be quoted from the Bible and it will take an age on my cell. I do not want you to miss what God says and reveals. Besides do you have a name I can address you with? And are you in any particular denomination / religious group, etc.?
?: 20/02/2013 @15:16 “Thank you. Let me think about it. One does not have to be affiliated to a particular church to attain salvation. The Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God & contains all that is essential for salvation. Just a thought to close in case it’s a verse you feel supports your belief: “I & my Father are one” does not signify that Jesus is God. After all, He also said “my Father is greater than I”. Go well.”
Gary: 20/02/2013 @15:21 The Word is sufficient for salvation. Just queried to see where you stand. Doing a response with much Scripture.
Gary: 21/02/2013 @08:44 Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created… However, in Genesis 1:26 God said “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:” God is speaking in the plural, yet HE is the Creator. God gives the Word of prophecy to Isaiah in 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
This is a prophecy of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah, who is to be born into the world, who is called ‘The mighty God’, ‘The everlasting Father.’ How can the Son be named God and Father?? In Isaiah 33:22 God reveals Himself as: “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.” We are told that we must all appear before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ (see 1 Corinthians 5:10) so who is going to judge? God said He is judge, yet Jesus is judge as we read in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The Word is ‘logos’ and it is Jesus Christ. We then read in John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Did you read the Word who is God was made flesh? We also read in 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (You won’t find this verse in the modern day perversions like the NIV) Then there is the time when Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58) He used the same title used when God spoke to Moses in the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). What was the Jews’ response? They wanted to stone Jesus. The Jews knew the Torah and they knew Jesus was using “I am” which God said He is “I am”. Then there is the Scripture John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
But don’t quote it without the context. In John 10:33 we read: The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy: and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Then we read in 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
In John 12:44,45 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Then we read in John 14:8,9 Philip saith unto him, Lord shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father: and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father.
We also read in Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Then in Matthew 1:23 we read: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
We also read of ‘doubting’ Thomas in John 20:28,29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Then we read why Jesus – God the Son – was in obedience to His Father whilst on earth when we read Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of a cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Bear in mind you shall have no other gods before God and therefore you should not kneel before anyone but God!! In this verse EVERYTHING is kneeling to Jesus Christ!! Read also Hebrews 1:4-14 and more specifically verses 8-10 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of thine hands.
You see Scriptures confirm the True deity of Jesus Christ, that HE is GOD! It is not a man made doctrine. Please repent towards God and believe upon the True Jesus Christ. Jesus said in John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Please do read the complete Holy Bible.
?: 21/02/2013 @10:36 “Thanks for your Magnum Opus! I shall have to buy more airtime! I’m totally at ease with all of the Bible verses you quote – have read them all many times. It is with your under-standing of them that our paths diverge. None of the verse you quote vindicates your belief that Jesus is God nor that He is a triune god. Most theologians agree that the 1 John 5 verse is spurious. No matter. Your reference to the creation in Genesis: use of the plural “LET US…” simply refers to God & His Angels. You may choose to differ. I’m off to buy airtime!! Keep well.”
Gary: 21/02/2013 @10:57 Angels do not create and are not part of the creation process. Why would God the Creator consult with ministering spirits which He created to make man in “their” image? This is now starting to sound like the heretical teachings of the Mormons. Re-read Hebrews 1:4-14. You need to be born-again by the Spirit of God or else you will never understand. Please repent and stop making a god to suit yourself – that is idolatry “and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8. Good day.
?: 21/02/2013 @14:36 “Dear friend. I know you mean well & for this I thank you. You tell me that Jesus is God. What you are saying then is that God died on the cross & the world was without God for 3 days! That can’t be. GOD CANNOT DIE BUT WE KNOW JESUS DID. God raised His Son from the grave. Jesus said “I go to my Father”. A respected Anglican cleric (Dr J.W. Neuman) said that the doctrine of the Trinity has never been learned from Scripture while another Anglican said that the doctrine “formed no part of the original message. The Trinity doctrine only surfaced +/- 200 years after Jesus ascended. I’m content with what God said of Jesus: You are my Son. The Mormons are not Christians. Thank you again.”
Gary: 21/02/2013 @15:44 Friend, I know Mormons are not Christians, but so are ‘believers’ that refute the sovereign deity of Jesus Christ. Holy Scriptures have the Trinity throughout. That is exactly it, we might not truly understand it, but it does not mean the Trinity does not exist. Why are there then three Persons – Father, Son and Holy Ghost? God who will save His people chose to do it through Himself in the Person of His Son Jesus Christ. Listen to this – if God says He will not give His glory to any other (see Isaiah 48:11,12 and 17) saying He God is first and last, look what Jesus Christ says in Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Jesus has always existed from the beginning! He is the Creator as we read in Colossians 1:14-17 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (my emphasis)
It is also not irrational for God to bear our burden by loving us so much that He in the Person of Jesus Christ takes our sins upon Himself. This is True mercy and grace that no man could offer for our wretched reprobate sins committed against God our Creator! In Revelation 4:11 we read in reference to Jesus Christ – Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Remember you said God raised His Son from the dead, well Jesus says He will take up His own life, as we read in John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
If I were you friend I would believe the Bible and spend less time reading Anglican men who teach man’s teachings which are heresies. Flee from them and trust in the One True God Jesus Christ the Righteous – King of kings, Lord of lords and God of gods.
?: 21/02/2013 @19:46 “I have enjoyed sharing thoughts with you and I appreciate all the time you have devoted in this cause. Yes, I do read the Bible daily & by the end of the year will have read the OT once and the NT twice. The “Apostles’ Creed” sums up my belief. One question: do you believe the righteous will end up in Heaven? No urgency – your thumb must be tired!!”
?: 21/02/2013 @20:06 “God is the Father. Jesus is His Son. The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is God’s power. The doctrine of the Trinity is man made. Scripture is clear – Jesus Christ is the Son of God & this is stated many times. Nowhere in the Bible will u find “God the Son”. You say we may not fully understand the Trinity. The Bible exhorts us to prove all things.”
Gary: 22/02/2013 @23:42 Dear ? (for you still choose to remain anonymous despite my request for your name). I have presented many Scriptures to you which you have said “you are at ease with them”, yet you cannot hear that the Lord Jesus Christ is speaking in His Word telling you in many places that He and God the Father are One. At no point did Jesus reprove anyone when they worshipped Him, yet Paul did not want men to sacrifice to him, then if Jesus is only a man – Son of God – why do men worship Him and offer themselves to Him?
Hear the Words of Jesus Christ (in the plural – WE) in John 3:11-13 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
This Scripture is before Jesus’ ascension to heaven and yet He says that He is at the same time on earth and in heaven. In the words of Matthew Henry “Jesus Christ is every way able to reveal the will of God to us; for he came down from heaven, and yet is in heaven. We have here a notice of Christ’s two distinct natures in one person, so that while he is the Son of man, yet he is in heaven. God is the “HE THAT IS,” and heaven is the dwelling-place of his holiness. The knowledge of this must be from above, and can be received by faith alone.”
Jesus Christ said it best: “… even the Son of man which is in heaven.” How can you refute the evidence contained in God’s Word?
There can be only one truth and Jesus said He is Truth, and we are also to worship the Father God in spirit and truth (see John 4:23,24). Please go back, and don’t just read the Scriptures, but meditate on them asking God to open your understanding what you are reading. Please do so!
John: 23/02/2013 @10:34 Dear Gary, thank you again for all your well-meaning text messages. There are so many treasures in the Bible & in the words of the Lord Jesus “You will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive”. You & I may take comfort from these words – you from your understanding & I from mine. Kipling put it well: “if you can bear the truth you’ve spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools”. You and I should pause to reflect on these wise words. You sincerely hold to the doctrine of the trinity. I know it not and am fully persuaded that Jesus Christ is the “only begotten Son of God” & that He sits at God’s right hand & that He & He alone is the only mediator between God & man. May the good Lord guide us both. I am at peace with His Word. Thank you again Gary for sharing your thoughts. Go in peace. “Search the Scriptures” to gain understanding. In closing & with sincere best wishes, John.
John: 24/02/2013 @12:06 Hi Gary. I forgot to ask you – but no need to answer! Just “THINK ON THESE THINGS”. You tell me that Jesus is God. Mary held Him in her arms; thousands SAW Him. Many touched Him. How do you reconcile this with 1 John 4 @ verse 12? “NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME”. John.
Gary: 25/02/2013 @12:03 Dear John, thank you for your notes and comments. What you said on the 23rd is taken out of context. All Scripture must be quoted in context. The Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 13:14 that it was a fulfilled prophecy: And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
We go on and read Matthew 13:15,16 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
These Scriptures were in reference to Salvation as the preceding text in Matthew 13:1-9 refers to the seed (Word) being sown into different soils (persons). In Jesus speaking in parables it was so the hardhearted who did not come in humility would not receive, see and understand! The Scripture you quoted as a standard does not give or allow me ONE understanding and you ANOTHER understanding! The apostle Paul addressed this in 1 Corinthians 1:9-13 when he showed the church at Corinth that there were divisions amongst themselves and they were not speaking the same things, as we read: God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (my emphasis)
So, John, in love, I do not take comfort in that I can have my understanding and you have your understanding! In fact it does not matter what we personally understand, for we are to be understanding and obedient to what God’s Word tells us – that will result in speaking the same thing and being perfectly joined! As it stands at the moment, we do not have that perfect oneness. There is division! Another thing, I distance myself from agreeing with your quote by Kipling. If it is “Joseph Rudyard Kipling” then I will never agree with a Free Masonry’s quote and in your own words: “You and I should pause to reflect on these wise words.” NEVER! With Kipling being initiated into Freemasonry I certainly do not deem him wise!
I too would like to correct your understanding. I am not only persuaded in the doctrine of the Trinity, but I am also persuaded in the fact that Jesus Christ is the “only begotten Son of God” and that He sits at God’s right hand and that He and He alone is the only mediator between God and man.
And in closing John, your reference to 1 John 12 where you emphasised “NO ONE HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME”, this Scripture must not be quoted and read in isolation, but be read in context. The point being made, first starts with what the context of the Scripture tells us. Let us read 1 John 4:11-13 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
If no man has seen God, that is true in the spiritual form, for God is Spirit (see John 4:24), but in the context of that verse people will know that God indwells His children “because he hath given us of his Spirit” (the Holy Spirit). We are able to love Him because God first loved us as we read in 1 John 4:19,20 We love him, because he first loved us. If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
All Scriptures must be read in context, context and context and allow the Scriptures to confirm and speak for themselves! Has any person seen God in the physical form? Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ the manifestation of God – as I have quoted the Scriptures in preceding quotes – Isaiah 9:6; John 1:1,2,14; 1 John 5:7; John 8:58; John 10:30; 1 Timothy 3:16; John 12:44,45; John 14:8,9; Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23; John 20:28,29; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 1:8-10; Isaiah 48:11,12,17 and Revelation 22:13; Colossians 1:14-17; Revelation 4:11; John 3:11-13. If the Word of God says so, you and I, cannot discount them to fit with a certain personal dogma! You either believe the written presented Holy text or you discount it! There is no ways two people can have opposed understandings and both call it truth! Someone must be True and someone must have lies! There can never be two Truths speaking in opposition of itself. That’s the problem with the thousands upon thousands of religious systems in the world not to mention all the church denominations! They all claim to be true! Ecumenicalism = Deceptions of the Devil!
I speak these things out of sincerity for the Truth to prevail.
Kind regards, Gary.
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